The Atheist Experience #750, 2/26/2011. 2. There simply never has been nothing. With science, a cell divides from another cell. Logic, real logic, alone cannot tell us whether something can come from nothing or not, just like it couldn't tell us if the orbits of the planets are perfect spheres or if the sun orbits the earth. Have you ever heard the phrase, “Something cannot come from Nothing,” before? In 1960 the Princeton physicist—and subsequent Nobel Prize winner—Eugene Wigner raised a fundamental question: Why did the natural world always—so far as we know—obey laws of mathematics? You can't have division without a cell. James Clerk Maxwell (1831–1879) was a committed Christian who viewed his biblical faith as the basis for all the scientific work he did. 1. The beauty of Tryon’s suggestion is that the properties of this vacuum state can be calculated, so the question of how “nothing” became “something” was opened up. There is no "nothing" in space and never was. Now at this point, if you are not mathematically minded or familiar with things like Limitations then you are right now rocking back and forth in your chair questioning existence (maybe I’m projecting my own experience after dealing with this). 2. “Something can’t come from nothing, so their must be a God” (cosmological, or First Cause, argument) is not only a non sequitur when defending ones religious claims, it is also not a very good argument on its own merit. What about the “laws of physics”? Evolutionists must believe in “miracles” and “magic.” An evolutionist like Krauss can’t explain how the world works except to descend into irrationality. Man created the gods to ease their insecurity with their ignorance of … Something came from nothing due to god leads directly into the question Where did god come from. Page 2 of 2 < Prev 1 2. It feels about time that age-old question “why is there something rather than nothing?” should notice it’s old age and finally die off. He has been described as the father of modern physics. Like Reply Challenge. Well, before you click away, we only have one half of this issue at hand, as we have yet to consider Democritus’ side of this story (and then we will see how they conflict). To speak of creation Ex Nihilo does not mean that we have a "change" in substance from nothing to something. Otherwise its an endless conundrum of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Lyrics by Richard Rodgers.)). No, only God, and my God at that. Can Something Come From Nothing? There are numerous issues that one would then encounter, because there is no logical reason why something cannot come from nothing (the absence of existence). Results are only viewable after voting. Dec 2, 2011 #21. The last issue that we must then discuss in regards to both YEC’s and Atheists/Agnostics (insert label here) is the issue of turning the Philosophical Nothing into Something. Eric from Mesa Arizona calls in to challenge Matt to a debate. The idea isn't a rule, but a description. This is the Reification fallacy, which I fell prey to while formulating my positions on this, in fact. "In Stephen Hawking’s new book The Grand Design, he says that because of the law of gravity, the universe can and will create itself out of nothing. Nothing can come of nothing. But if all space in the universe was filled with matter and substance, where could these other atoms (like people) move into? Thus, they argued that a void of non-existence had to be present in order for there to be a space for atoms to move into. And if you wish to show that something may in fact come from this nothing, you can simply indicate that if there is nothing, then there is nothing to prevent something from coming into existence, and if you want to talk about the idea of nothing being nonsensical (even though it still is logically possible) you can simply turn to the ancient works of old, where they showed that proposing nothing within the scope of things which exist becomes entirely problematic, and then you can go from there. Through mathematics and indirect observation of quantum fluctuations, scientists can now make the case that our universe did indeed come into existence out of what people call, “nothing.” Now most people’s problem with this astonishing discovery comes from the use of this word, “nothing.” They couldn’t because all of space would be filled. ((“Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). As Wigner wrote, “the enormous usefulness of mathematics in the natural sciences is something bordering on the mysterious and there is no rational explanation for it.”, In other words, as I argue in my book [God? I hope you enjoyed the (very long) collaboration today. ((Ian Hutchinson, “James Clerk Maxwell and the Christian Proposition”: http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Maxwell/)). The Reification fallacy is basically when someone treats a hypothetical as though it were real. Now this is where things get more interesting. In the book ‘The Grand Design’, page 281, scientist Stephen Hawking has written that bodies like stars or black holes cannot just appear out of nothing, but a whole universe can. One of the most fundamental questions of all time nicely dealt with by the guys on the Atheist Experience. But there is a more interesting and complicated problem, which sheds light on further issues with the concept of nothing, but to get there we need to take a trip back in time to the Presocratics and the dawn of Natural Science. Can something come from nothing? Every day beautiful and miraculous objects suddenly appear, from snowflakes on a cold winter morning to vibrant rainbows after a late-afternoon summer shower. 2. In other words, the total amount of energy in the universe appears to be zero. Any answer that solves this problem for god can probably also just … While the question seemed all-important and pertinent to the ancients, what we now know about the nature of the universe renders it obsolete. This is particularly true when discussing the concept of nothing, and what ends up being caught is that because of the limitations of language, we always talk about things as though they are objects. It is associated with ancient Greek cosmology, such as is presented not just in the works of Homer and Hesiod, but also in virtually every internal system: there is no break in-between a world that did not exist and one that did, since it could not be created ex nihilo in the first place. It's virtual impossibly. In the end, the curse that Zeno and Parmenides plagued us with remains: motion is impossible, because between any two points there are an infinite number of atoms (thank goodness for Limitations and Calculus). Concluding this, you can rest assured that even if you accept a definition of nothing as being “the absence of everything,” there is still no reason that something cannot come from nothing, and so it is on the shoulders of the YEC to state that something cannot come from nothing. And to go from that next halfway point to the destination you must again go half way. Atomists (like Democritus) believed that motion was possible. Something came from nothing due to god leads directly into the question Where did god come from. Then we could go back in time (because we’re super smart and can do that) and create the universe. ((Krauss, A Universe from Nothing, xiii.)). If virtual particles can come from nothing, does that mean that something can actually come from nothing? Given the First Law of Thermodynamics: that you can't get something from nothing. Asked by: Rob Answer The law you cite, applies only to 'closed systems', i.e. It’s a catch-22. Democritus proposed that all things in the universe, all that exists, are made up of an indivisibly small particle which he called the Atom. Yet no one but the most ardent fundamentalists would suggest that that each and every such object is lovingly and painstakingly and, most importantly, purposely created by a divine intelligence. An idea can come from nothing. Can Something Come From Nothing? He just always existed Ok, then the laws of physics could have always existed. It can't account for anything since anything is something and something does not appear spontaneously from nothing. My father who is a mechanical engineer seems to think that something cannot come from nothing but I think that he is wrong because my father evidently never heard of virtual particles and quantum field theory. Well, that's not really accurate. Dr. Krauss has not explained how the water came into existence to make the snowflake or the informational structure that constitutes the substance we call water to explain how it always reacts the same way to temperature variations and predictable weather conditions. … Despite the many other enormous advances of modern physics, little has changed in this regard. We can custom-write anything as well! … But here is where it gets really interesting, when the debate comes forth. Read "Can Something Come From Nothing Critical Thinkings and other exceptional papers on every subject and topic college can throw at you. ((Robert H. Helson, “Existence of God: The Rational Arguments from Mathematics to Human Consciousness,” Independent (May 17, 2017): http://bit.ly/2w1Fcli)). I would be shocked if you hadn’t, because it is a favorite in today’s culture (predominant among those who contest scientific realities like the Big Bang Theory, i.e. So now we have established that something can come from nothing. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God). He must steal that energy from the theistic power plant that he ridicules, misrepresents, and claims it doesn’t exist. What if mankind developed for a million years and became so smart that we would essentially be Gods. These particles have tremendous density but we cannot observe them, for their observable characteristics cancel each other out. Can something come from nothing? You want to see a scientist, who doesn't believe in the existence of God, unravel and come unglued in front of your eyes??? The something from nothing hypothesis is illogical, unscientific, and faith-based. ((“Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). Morse, Wilbur and Orville Wright, Werner von Braun, Raymond Damadian (inventor of the MRI), and many other scientists would be surprised to know this since modern scientists stand on the shoulders of these Christian scientists. The beginning and end links to the end and beginning. Imagination allows that to be possible. The fact that there is a difference, proves that 'something' has to have come from 'something'. Q: “How can something come from nothing?” …Let’s see! C) Therefore A1 and A2 are together and there is no B, therefore no N. When put in a modern context, like discussing the Big Bang and “Something coming from nothing,” YEC’s will have numerous issues trying to use this concept. Consider this bit of irrationality: In fact, many laypeople as well as scientists revel in our ability to explain how snowflakes and rainbows can spontaneously appear, based on simple, elegant laws of physics. For one thing, this discovery has produced remarkable new support for the idea that our universe arose from precisely nothing. The following is from the Preface to his book: In the interests of full disclosure right at the outset I must admit that I am not sympathetic to the conviction that creation requires a creator, which is at the basis of all the world’s religions. Only God can create something from Nothing in their minds. Something can’t come from nothing. I don’t know of a single “fundamentalist” who has ever claimed that God designs every snowflake. A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. If nothing comes from nothing then even God had to have something to start with! Second, they have to distinguish if they mean Scientific Nothing (which is still very much something, read Lawrence Krauss if you don’t believe me), or Philosophical Nothing (the absence of existence). "Nothing" is not a type alternate reality. Report Post . Young Earth Creationists). It explains that we can almost always get something from nothing, even if the religious community claim only a deity can make something from nothing they cannot or will be unwilling to define what nothing is. The foundational points we can establish thus far are the following: 1. On the centenary of James Clerk Maxwell’s birth, Albert Einstein described Maxwell’s work as the “‘most profound and the most fruitful that physics has experienced since the time of Newton.’ Einstein, when he visited the University of Cambridge in 1922, was told by his host that he had done great things because he stood on Newton’s shoulders; Einstein replied: ‘No I don’t. 0. Krauss has stated that “Science is only truly consistent with an atheistic worldview…” I’m sure Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Johannes Kepler, Joseph Lister, James Young Simpson, Samuel F.B. “Something can’t come from nothing, so their must be a God” (cosmological, or First Cause, argument) is not only a non sequitur when defending ones religious claims, it is also not a very good argument on its own merit. It is another way of saying there are no laws and nothing upon which actions could even take place. A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. The books goes through the big bang and many other cosmological aspects that will enrich your understanding of the known universe. I'm skipping some crucial steps here, but that is the gist of it. Together with various other more technical properties, this led Tryon to suggest that the universe was created from nothing or, more precisely, what physicists call the vacuum state. How does a materialist like Krauss account for non-physical entities like mathematics and physics in a cosmos that seemingly came into existence out of nothing and continues to operate in terms of fixed and predictable laws? 0. What is the void? The universe came from nothing. No one has ever seen a law of physics. Plants grew, adapted, and expanded just like humans do on earth. Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Cieza, Nov 30, 2011. Well it is nothing at all, because everything that has existence is made of atoms, so the void is something non-existent. Something can't come out of nothing. “Nothing comes from Nothing”, this is a statement many Christians make to prove that God exists. And if you can’t create something, you can’t get anything. If it were, it would cease to be nothing and become something. Old King Lear has decided to retire and divide his kingdom among his three daughters. For example, if we were to put existence and nonexistence in complementary sets, linguistically we treat them as both existing. If it were, it would cease to be nothing and become something. I was searching for an old copy of a popular science magazine that had a small sentence in a history of 20th century scientists article. But is that the only possibility? Here is this common misconception in a nutshell: “The universe couldn’t have possibly popped into existence out of nothing.” Quantum Physics is, in a way, the new kid on the block. There are two ways in which one can go about dismissing the idea of “nothing” in regards to Democritus’ theory. Thanks Nothing is a human concept for even the "emptiness" of space we have found something. While the question seemed all-important and pertinent to the ancients, what we now know about the nature of the universe renders it obsolete. Man created the gods to ease their insecurity with their ignorance of that which they found significant in life. Pushkin October 19, 2002, 12:36pm #1. A vacuum is a balanced combination of matter and antimatter, or particles and antiparticles. Believe it or not there are some atheists who actually think nothing can do something. This is where all parties can fall into a fallacy, because we have to distinguish that just because we treat something as an object within language, that doesn’t make it a real object (unicorns aren’t real, even though when discussing them, we talk about them in terms of real things). Between atoms is a void of nothing. Virtual particles are often cited as evidence that things can come into existence from nothing, since they pop into existence out of the quantum vacuum. In conclusion, something could come from nothing but equally not become at all. Where did all the stuff in the universe come from and how is it still a law if it was once broken? And if some things can appear out of nothing then why can't the universe or God for that matter had come from nothing? Only God can create something from Nothing in their minds. Very Probably: Five Rational Ways to Think about the Question of a God], it takes the existence of some kind of a god to make the mathematical underpinnings of the universe comprehensible. In English, this means that if there is nonexistence (nothing) between two atoms, then logically those two atoms must be touching, as there is nothing separating them. I was an atheist for about two years and have read the God delusion and i used to be a Catholic. Ok, where did God come from? So there you go, I saved the less mentally damaging for last. It is impossible to get from one point to another, because the distance can be infinitely divided in half, meaning any distance between two points is infinite. Nothing comes from nothing is a philosophical dictum first argued by Parmenides. What makes them laws? I actually have a theory about this that, as far as I can tell, explains the actual creation of all existence from absolute ubiquitous nothingness. It is a theistic answer to the question of how the universe comes to exist. But Carrier replied to my point with this statement: Oh yes, "out of nothing, nothing comes" is another one. Why couldn’t there always have been something? When scientists say that the universe can simply come out of nothing without any divine intervention, they think of the universe in terms of its energy content only. The issue as you can see is that, in the end, the concept of nothing seems to be self-defeating in these contexts. Dr. Krauss is engaged in some evolutionary sleight of hand. The following is his starting point upon which he builds his worldview: [M]ost of the energy in the universe resides in some mysterious, now inexplicable form permeating all of empty space. The creation of such particles is therefore never “out of nothing”—it is out of a preexisting space that is filled with energy. Well nothing, because nothing cannot stop anything because it is… nothing. … where nothing can be added or subtracted from the 'specimen'. A clue to the answer is in the Bible for those that look for it! A = Atom(s) used with numbers to differentiate, P2) If B = N then NE is between A1 and A2, P3) If NE is between A1 and A2 then A1 and A2 cannot be separated as there is no E to separate them. For all anyone can tell, it is possible for something to come from nothing. The universe came from nothing. Or to put it more colloquially: in order to get from one point to another, first you must go halfway. God did design the material (and everything else) that makes up snowflakes and the process by which they form. But I have problems with several of the other posts on this opinion thread: 1. And to get from the halfway point to the destination you must go half way. It is a theistic answer to the question of how the universe comes to exist. But if something exists, then it must be made of atoms. Absolute nothingness cannot produce something given endless time—in fact, there can be no time in absolute nothingness.” ((Abraham Varghese, “The ‘New Atheism’: A Critical Appraisal of Dawkins, Dennett, Wolpert, Harris, and Stenger,” in Anthony Flew with Abraham Varghese, There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (New York: HarperCollins, 2007), 170.)). Believe it or not there are some atheists who actually think nothing can do that ) and the! Rule, but that is between these atoms could come in different shapes and sizes and were foundation... 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Conditions, and Parmenides ( from where the Eleatic School and those who! Actually existing upon which actions could even take place idea is n't a rule opinion thread: 1 not! Material, conditions, and claims it doesn ’ t at all, they often cite what are known! That solves this problem for God can create something from popping into existence space and never.... T there always have been something potter who needs his tools and clay, you can see that. I used to be something between two atoms, and my God at that ” from the power! It obsolete is asked it is usually in regard to the destination you must again go half way single. Tools and clay, you can ’ t exist existence is made of atoms n't the renders... Not nothing. Critical Thinkings and other exceptional papers on every subject and topic college throw...
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